The Author – Bart Busschots
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Jan
27
The iPad – First Thoughts
Filed Under Computers & Tech on January 27, 2010 at 8:46 pm
These are my very first thoughts having just finished “watching” (or rather reading live blogs of) the event. At this stage I have more questions than answers in some regards, but, I have to say, I’m impressed. This was a tablet demo, what Balmer did a few short weeks ago at CES was a pathetic side-show – a feeble pre-emptive “me too” that’s clearly not even nearly enough to compete on quality.
It was great to see Steve set the scene and give us the philosophy behind the device. He basically talked us through Apple’s thinking on the space now inhabited by netbooks, i.e. the gap between laptops and smartphones. It was like he was telling us a story, and it made sense. You can’t deny that Apple have put a lot of thought into this thing. I’m pretty sure Jobs has been using one of these things for a while, and I think he’s really worked out what a tablet needs to be in order to really be useful.
It’s no secret that I hate netbooks, you sacrifice far too much just to get a small form factor. Taking a big computer and making it smaller and expecting it to work just like the big one is insane, and that’s what netbooks do. It reminds me a lot of Windows CE. The idea that a phone or a PDA needed a Start Menu was madness. The notion that a GUI designed for large screens and mice could just be shrunk was utter lunacy! Does it really make sense to strain your eyes peering at teeny tiny nested drop down menus, or indeed to poke at these tiny menus with a small stick? It certainly doesn’t to me! Netbooks don’t take things to the ridiculous extremes of Windows CE, but the fundamental problem is the same. Our desktop OSes were just not designed for tiny devices!
As happy as I was to see that this thing does not just shrink Mac OS X, I was just as happy to see that it didn’t just super-size the iPhone interface either. That would have been just as bad. Big giant buttons wasting space all over the place, no thanks! What we got looks like a hybrid betwen Mac OS X and the iPhone OS to me. It’s clearly still designed to be used by direct manipulation with your fingers, but on a big screen, with finger-sized dropdown menus and heads up displays and stuff. As Allison loves to point out, I’m REALLY hard to impress when it comes to UI design, but I have to say, I really liked what I saw today. It looks good, polished, and well thought out.
Freedom from the Death Star!
I’m also hugely relieved that this thing comes cellphone-company free. An unlocked device that will work on any network that support micro-SIM, and an option to save money by not even bothering with a Cell radio at all, that’s all music to my ears I can tell you! Were I to be in the US though, I’d have to admit that the data plans from AT&T look impressive. No contract at all, and from as little as $14.99 a month! Hell, even the unlimited package is a steal at only thirty bucks a month! For those of us with no intention of getting ANOTHER monthly bill, the presence of 802.11n WiFi is a nice touch.
Real Apps – not Toy Apps!
The presence of a full iWork suite on the new device blew me away. This is a serious computer! With email, web, and an office suite, this thing would be enough to use as your only computer on business travel! The presence of a display out port to allow connectivity to projectors seals that deal. And, just in case I wasn’t totally convinced, the keyboard dock really really sealed the deal. I think it was smart to do iWork for this thing first, but I very very much doubt this will be the last major Apple app to get ported to the pad. Just imagine iPhoto on this thing, or even Aperture – heaven!
The iPhone comes tantalisingly close to being a good enough computer to act as your only computer when you’re travelling. It comes close, but for me, not close enough. The iPad though, I think that could well be enough. The mail client and iWork in particular hammered that point home to me.
But I Have Questions
However, I do still have a lot of questions about this new device, and the answers to these questions could make all the difference in the world as to my final thoughts on it.
- Does it support any sort of multitasking at all? Even just background apps? It would seem to have far more power than the iPhone, so surely it should be capable of doing at least two things at once!?
- You can get apps via the app store, but can you ONLY get apps via the apps store?
- Does this thing have some form of file store so you can pass files around from app to app? What good are a fully featured email client and a fully featured office suite if you can’t easily pass files between them?
What’s with the USB ports? Will third parties get to write drivers for system-wide peripherals? Could we get printing from this device? What about accessing files on a thumb-drive? Or the internet via 3G/HSDPA/EVDO/LTE dongles? They mentioned USB, but didn’t expand.Update (23:48 GMT 27 Jan 2010): turns out I imagined the USB ports – the thing syncs by USB to your computer, that’s all the USB there is!
Would I Buy One?
At the moment I have an ageing 17″ laptop, and an even older 20″ iMac (it’s a G5!). Both will need replacing within the next year or so. I’ve pretty much decided to go for the whole digital hub idea, a powerful desktop with a big screen at home as the centre of my digital world, and a small light device for when I’m not at home, or not in my study. I have my heart set on a 27″ iMac, so that’s half the equation decided. The other half though, that’s not even nearly as clear-cut!
There’s no way I’m getting another 17″ laptop, the MBP was a great primary machine, and I loved it to bits, but I bought it to be my main machine, my digital hub if you will. My MacMini (and later my second hand iMac) was just a satellite machine to the MBP. In other words, the exact inverse of what I want now. Since it was a primary device, the size really didn’t bother me, in fact, I just love the 17″ display. But, even though Apple’s 17″ laptops are compact by comparison to most others, 17″ is still a big screen, and hence a lot to carry around
Since I’ve decided to move back to having the desktop as my primary device, what I need is a small, light, but capable portable computer to compliment it. The MacBook air would be super, but lets be honest, there’s a recession on and I’m not made of money! The 13″ MacBook Pro is a very nice computer, but maybe it’s over-kill for a secondary device. The venerable old MacBook has just never appealed to me, it’s a relic from times past in my mind. So, that leaves the iPad. If it really is enough, then it would be a steal starting at just $499! Even if I opted for the most expensive model, it would still be under a grand. And lets face it, I really don’t want a cell radio, so I just won’t go for that most expensive model!
Realistically, for me, it’s the choice between a 13″ MBP and the iPad as my secondary computer. I haven’t made up my mind at all on what I will buy when the time comes, but the iPad is a real option, and I have to say, I’m feeling very drawn to it at the moment. Of course, when the reality distortion field breaks down I may well re-consider 🙂
$499 is the USD recommended price. I wonder what that will translate into good ol’ Ireland.
1)It has to be able to multitask.I just cannot see them letting out a device with a one item at a time capability.
2) I really hope they dont lock it to the app store but have a sneaking suspision they will or at least try to for the first while. I think people can accept that on a phone but scaled up i can’t see people in general accepting it. But then again the app store has shown huge profitability so there is a demand being fed there.
Then again im speaking from a completely apple free point of view.
From what i’ve read /seen of it. Id consider it myself. I am one of the people who bought a netbook and its pretty much sitting gathering dusk at the moment. I can see the iPad actually doing what i wanted a netbook for in the first place. But id wait until at least the 2nd generation personally.
JC
Since I have been using the Kindle and Stanza apps on my iPod Touch to do a lot of reading – the iPad will be perfect. I have been holding off on getting a Kindle, now no reason to – can have access to Amazon’s library along with all the apps. The Kindle is a one trick pony whereas the iPad is not restricted.
I was always amazed at how usable Safari was on the iPod Touch and it has to rock at a bigger form factor.
Your questions are good ones though and I would certainly like to know about multitasking and access to the file system. Surely it has to be more of hybrid of a laptop iPod Touch/iPhone than just a big iPod Touch/iPhone. The lack of a camera is rather surprising.
According to the SDK it is just one app at a time – same as iPhone. 🙁
When you say USB are you referring to the USB looking holes on the side? According to the Apple web site these are for the speaker!
I still want one!
Cheers,
Chris
Worcester
England
Mac newbie, but loving your podcasts!
JC – I have to say I was wondering how you’d feel about this, since you’ve tried the netbook thing and found that the magic wore off. I think I’m happy to jump in at version 1 on this, but, not till I’ve held one in my hands and played with it.
Jeff – apparently there is a camera available as a peripheral, looks like those two standard iPod dock connectors are going to be put to work!
Chris – thanks for the info from the SDK – I sure hope that changes in future versions. Also, thanks for the info on the USB, I’ve corrected the post.
Bart.
The iPad looks good, though i think i would need to play with it to be sure.
I don’t know if i need a 3G model, that much, but then again Wi-Fi is not as freely available here. I guess if i could get a data plan for €15 a month with a decent download limit i would consider it.
If i got the device it would be as a Net computer, and a travelling machine.
On being App Store only, it would be ok If they let other Business apps in. iWork is nice and all, but most employers would probably like you to be working with Microsoft Office Tech.
which means the prices in the iPad section of the App Store could be a lot higher.
The Reality distorton field has me in its Grasp. Unlike the original iPhone i can not see anything major missing. (as i said when the iPhone came out, once it gets 3G it will be mine 🙂
Hmmmm will have to watch the keynote once its released to the interwebs.
I tend to disagree,
Netbooks have a place, just because ASUS forced every computer manufacturer to rethink prices, design and markets doesn’t mean you can slam the idea of a very small and cheap computer, which is very good at being very portable.
after much reflection on this new product, I’ve come to the conclusion that I have no need for it, in the slightest. Nor does it appeal to me…
I always seem to immune to this reality distortion field.
But it has made me consider a nice small ebook reader, with a good grayscale e-ink screen to read in the sunlight with a battery that lasts weeks rather then mere hours…
Call it a one trick pony, but let me tell you a thing or two about one trick ponies, if they can do there trick well, then you’ll make your money back once you put them out to stud. Otherwise you just trotting it out to show your friends his selection of cheap party tricks
Karl – I remain to be convinced that you can shrink a laptop and turn it into well thought out well engineered high quality cheap device. You can have cheap and cheerful, or you can have well designed well thought out well engineered device. I’d love a unicorn too, but I don’t see one cantering up my driveway any time soon!
Anyhow – I seriously doubt the iPad is for everyone. Realistically, what is? I don’t think everyone is gonna want one. But, I think it’s going to do well, and I think it’s going to do better than the Kindle. I could be wrong. Time will tell.
Bart.
Bart, I’m surprised,
Something thats well engineered, is something that works. As much it may bug you, shiny != good design && shiny != good engineering.
It has to do the job, do it well and do it in a cost effective way, The basis of good engineering.
Netbooks have a place (or a ‘job’), it might not be your place, but they have a place.
Anyway, I can’t see this being the greatest success in apples history.
But, I’m sure they’ll sell a ton of them.
To be fair, I never said anything would do well because it’s shiny – those are your words not mine. I haven’t mentioned shiny at all.
Shiny may not be well engineered, but well engineered things are elegant and functional and as a result, often considered shiny!
I have yet to see a well engineered netbook. My hands are human-sized, not dwarf sized. Designing a device without taking that reality into account cannot be good engineering or design! What ever else you can say about the iPhone, at least it’s designed to function well within the screen size it has, and with the size of hands we actually have. It’s form factor is good, and it’s interface accommodates both the size and human anatomy properly.
Everyone has different priorities in the devices they buy. For some people price and size are everything, regardless of the massive compromises netbooks bring to reach those two goals. For people with those priorities, Netbooks win. I just can’t stand spending my money on something I consider to be based on a fundamentally flawed idea – you can’t just shrink a computer and expect to comfortably interact with it as if you’d been shrunk too!
Apple will sell a ton of iPads, and Asus will ship a ton of netbooks. I predict the iPad will shape its industry like the iPhone has the smartphone industry, and the netbook will go the way of my Nokia brick.
Bart.
I do respect your opinions Bart,
But you own a bicycle and a long time ago the notion of having a bicycle with two similarly sized wheels was considered maddness.
Just like the piano was thought as really a bad idea at first, opinions change.
I think you’ll find that your Nokia brick is still popular with mobile phone companies core business, business customers.
Much to Nokia’s dismay, phones like the concrete block 6310i are still in high demand.
To say that something will go away and never be seen again is insanity, I’m sure we’ll see some great netbooks which change the game in some way and I’ve seen some great concept products (which I can’t go into)
Apple will sell a ton of these, to who and why remains to be seen.
As Steve Jobs himself put it, Tablets are only good for surfing the internet on the toilet.
To each their own, I guess, but tell me this. If you’re sitting in the lounge, on the bus, on a park bench or really anywhere other than at your usual computer (desktop/laptop) locations for home or work… and you suddenly need to know, perhaps, what is the start date for the Winter Olympics… would you reach for the laptop in your bag, or the iPhone in your pocket?
I’d reach for the iPhone because of the *immediacy* of the device. The iPad has that same capability, but mixed with the usability of the larger display. Though you can’t keep it in your pocket, neither can you keep a laptop there.
As for the app store. What significant piece of functionality are you lacking on the iPhone in real terms? I mean, forget your personal preferences for a moment and think of what you CANNOT do. After all, sometimes there is no suitable software for your Mac either – email apps, Bart????
I have to say I’m stumped by the iPad. It looks nice, seems very flash, but what is it for?
I am a regular netbook user, if you’re a mobile worker like me then nothing beats it for usefulness and usability, it’s the best computer device I’ve bought. It’s fully functional, has a small-screen friendly interface (thanks Ubuntu) and allows me to be fully productive. (btw I have big hands!)It also fits neatly on the seatback tray of a cattle class airline seat. But I digress, enough about my fabulous netbook 🙂
Tablet PCs have failed to light the imagination for the last decade. My first impressions are that even if Apple make one it doesn’t feel like a game changer (unlike the iPod and iTunes). It still feels like a solution searching for a problem.
What has struck me, with yesterday’s demo of the New York Times app, is that the newspaper industry is trying to move towards Paywalls. An Apple publishing ecosystem around iTunes/Apps would tie in nicely with this strategy. Maybe Apple are trying to get in on this in the event that paid-for content by newspapers takes off. Perhaps the print industry is hoping that what Apple did for online music purchases it can duplicate for online print content? The mashing up of static text with video content through a newspaper app is certainly something a bit more than your usual eBook format.
I agree with you Bart about the iPad. I will go further and say it is a game changer.
I have always wanted to ask you about something you said on the MacRoundtable, but I have never figured out how to contact you. Please help if you are interested.
Karl – just a wee correction, what Steve said was that he didn’t want to make a device that would only be used to surf the web on the toilet – slightly different.
Allister – the big things for me that are missing are limited background apps and a file store. I should be able to listen to music from an app other than iTunes while surfing the web or doing email. As for the file store, I should be able to save a file in one app and open that same file in another. Someone should be able to email me a document, I should be able to open it in my app of choice, edit it, save it, and email it back.
Other than that, I have no problems anymore with the iPhone. I’ve found an app for everything I want.
John – honestly, you’re the first person I know who truly loves his netbook. I’ve lost count of how many people I’ve seen go through the netbook phase. At first they think it will be really cool, the get all excited, buy it, love it for a few days, start using it less and less, and within a few months it’s lying abandoned in a corner gathering dust, or on sale on ebay.
I’m glad to hear the netbook is reaching some people and giving them what they want at a very good price. I wonder how the iPad would work for you? It’s also small, light and portable, has a great screen, and a great UI. I imagine it should also fit in cattle class on planes. If I were made of money I’d buy you one as an experiment to see if a true-blue netbook lover could live with, or even love, an iPad.
Bart.
OK, I agree about the filestore, although anything you do that takes more than one app is possibly outside the remit of such a device. Certainly I would say that is true of the iPhone though admittedly less so of the iPad.
As for background apps, what music won’t iTunes play? I’m still really at a loss about this “it won’t multitask” lark. The kinds of things I multitask on my desktop are video conversion, downloads, and maybe leaving things like Tweetie open. But I don’t do video conversion on the go, downloads DO run in the background on the iPhone and it barely takes a moment to shut down whatever app and open Tweetie – which has full retention of where you left off. Maybe that latter point is what is missing from the apps you use?
The fact is you only have one mouse, one keyboard. And on the iPad, OK TWO hands, but really one set of fingers and certainly only one brain.
I agree that most things that take more than one app are outside the scope of the iPhone, but I disagree completely that such things are outside the scope for the iPad. As the iWork demo clearly showed, this is a serious computer for serious apps, not just for toy apps or simplified apps.
What won’t iTunes play? How about the many streaming music services that exist? Why should Apple get to decide where you can get your music. It should be possible for anyone to make a music app for the iPad. Likewise, anyone’s app should be able to upload or download in the background, not just Apple’s. Sure, I can send email in the background, but not upload a video to Flickr. Apple get to do background stuff, why? Because it’s needed. Other devs should get to do it too.
Bart.
[…] Bart’s full views are at: bartbusschots.ie […]
That’s not multitasking. That’s background processing. Multitasking is having multiple tasks running, any of which might become the foreground task at any time. It differs from the iPhone/iPod model (as far as a user is concerned) only by the way in which the switch is effected. In fact, it could be argued that it is exactly the same. Cmd-Tab + Click versus Home + Tap. Take your IT hat off for a moment and you’ll see how subtle it is. If you had a fast enough processor in the iPad/iPhone, it would be effectively identical to the end user. Which also begs the question: Is the iPad *powerful* enough to allow multi-tasking?
An interesting thought occurs to me. When you moved up to the 27″ iMac at work, did you begin to expect more from it than your previous (17″?) model? Or does it just do the same stuff faster and make things easier to see?
After all, the difference is the same as iPod Touch > iPad. Bigger screen, faster processor.
Or is there a threshold somewhere between 480×320 and 1024×768?
Having thought about it (with a sinusitis muddled brain, so apologies for train of thought being addled… And crap spelling too!)
This thing is a turkey. I’ve heard people say, “Netbook makers should be quaking in their shoes”. Why?
Okay, let’s see if they should. Take my Samsung NC10 – it’s fairly typical of netbooks.
Cost – 300 euro. Three USB ports. 160 gb hard drive, wireless N and 2 gigs of ram. (Those last two bits cost me 30 euro extra, so 330 in all). I can plug in an optical drive if needs be too; so I have freedom of choice.
It can run Windows 7 and OSX *flawlessly* (if not legally 🙂 ), is not locked into the App store and can multitask on a single processor.
Let’s see the iPad. So, USB? No. Storage? Samsung beats it hands down, especially for the price. Can install what I want, from any vendor/supplier on the iPad? No. Camera? No. But they’ll bring video/photo/whatever editing sofware to it! So what? Doesn’t have the granularity of control for fine video editing, I can say that for sure. I’d imagine photo editing would be pretty bad too, but I remain open to seeing it first.
It does have a cool touch screen! But it’s really badly handicapped by all of those other ‘features’. And if I want to type? More than an e-mail/text? Realistically? I’ve to plug in a keyboard. So, it’s an over priced, bloated netbook. That can’t do as much as a regular netbook. Oh, and my netbook screen doesn’t have a load of smudged finger prints on it. If this were made by Microsoft, certain people would cry “rubbish!”…
This thing is the Emperor’s New Clothes. It’s lame, and shame on Steve Jobs. This thing is indefensible, I’m sorry to say. Many have compared the iPhone to a computer in your pocket, but we all really know its limitations. It’s obvious it doesn’t scale…
Oh, and Bart, you know I love my netbook, so John is not the only one! As do several of your work colleagues! (I work in the same place, so there!)
Oh, and it’s not a game changer. Just like the Wii *ultimately* wasn’t.
A novelty, but that’s all. Ask someone who plays games what the last thing they bought/played on the Wii was, apart from Mario (30 years old, remember, so hardly a game-changer…)
“Apple will sell a ton of iPads, and Asus will ship a ton of netbooks. I predict the iPad will shape its industry like the iPhone has the smartphone industry, and the netbook will go the way of my Nokia brick.”
Here’s a predicition for you! They will sell tons, but out of Apple’s fanbase, and they will gather dust, just like the Wii. If that’s justification for Apple doing ‘good’, then they’re as ‘evil’ as Microsoft ever were.
Hi Pete,
If you judge the iPad as a traditional PC it fails utterly. But that’s by design. It’s not trying to be a traditional PC. It’s trying to be an appliance. It’s the TiVo to your media centre PC. It’s a thing to let people without computer skills get computer stuff done and enjoy it. Are there people out there who need to do computery things but have no computer skills and are scared of computers? Yes – billions. Those are the people this device is for. It’s not for the techno-geeks who derive genuine pleasure from building their own machines from the ground up. You find being able to run many OSes liberating, people who are scared of computers don’t. In fact, Windows is daunting to them. But the iPad isn’t. No idea what a file is? Who cares! Never heard of a folder? great! You just point at stuff with your finger and it does stuff. Watch people with absolutely no computer skills at all use an iPhone. They take to it like a duck to water. The iPad should be the same. Mac developer Steven Frank is much more eloquent that me, so I’ll just link to him: http://stevenf.tumblr.com/post/359224392/i-need-to-talk-to-you-about-computers-ive-been
Oh – also, just some small corrections the iPad will work with any standard bluetooth keyboard, and it has the oilophobic coating that the new iPhone 3GS has that stops your screen getting smudged by actively repelling oils.
I also don’t think this is novelty device. I think it’s the future of commodity computing. It’s never going to replace the PC or the Mac, because nothing ever seems to get replaced in IT. You and I are living proof of that, we spend most of our day typing commands into a terminal afterall!
The iPhone massively outsells Mac. Massively. The iPad is a computer for anyone who knows how to use an iPod or an iPhone. That’s a WAY WAY bigger market than just Mac users. Mac users are in the minority when it comes to iPods and iPhones, and it will be the same for the iPad. What ever this turns out to be, a huge success or a flop, it’s certainly not a play to just the Mac fanboys.
I can’t prove they won’t gather dust, but I really don’t think so. As for your evil comment, I’m sorry but try as I might I genuinely can’t figure out what you’re trying to say.
Bart.
Hi Bart
I know of about 5 people who have bought netbooks, and we all love them. We are all regular business travellers, I use mine in hotels and on trains, the others use them on planes or on the Thalys/Eurostar.
The main advantage of a netbook is that it’s a fully functional machine, with a keyboard, and can be used to whack out e-mails, documents etc. at a similar speed to a laptop, while weighing about 1kg and with 6-8h of battery life. It’s also very versatile, with a full suite of office apps, multimedia and games. They are also comparatively cheap and quite robust. Netbooks set out to provide lightweight mobile computing, and it does that extremely well.
I can’t see myself using an iPad. It’s another spin on the tablet PC and it’s not got a keyboard. I can’t get on with the iPhone’s onscreen keypad, and I’m not sure if this will be any different. The more I look at it, this looks like Apple came up with this as a result of the move towards paid-for content in online print news, with the media industry hoping that it succeeds so they have an established online content charging and delivery platform.
Incidentally I also have a Sony eReader, that I bought last November. It’s a great gadget (although I have a gripe about the pricing of ebooks – they should be cheaper than print editions..non?). It has battery life for about 2500 page turns, e-ink that is legible in strong sunlight and a touch-sensitive screen. It’s got nothing like the functionality of the iPad, or my netbook, but it does its job so well that I couldn’t imagine buying Apple’s device to replace it.
It didn’t like the sand on the beach yesterday though, still waiting for a manufacturer to come up with a sand-proof device 🙂
I was pretty negative on it before seeing the presentation, and I want to buy an iPad now (and I am not really subject to the reality distortion field).
I am not nearly as negative on netbooks as Steve Jobs (and it seems like tens of millions agree with me). Netbooks run Windows 7 or OS X pretty well, and the keyboard size doesn’t bother me at all. One of my favorite computers ever was the much smaller Toshiba Libretto, and I have used Sony UMPCs, etc. I would have been perfectly happy with an OS X netbook.
What turned me around?
First off the price of the iPad was considerably better than I had imagined. I also have a MiFi, so I don’t have to get the 3G version.
The big screen will be an improvement for book reading, web browsing, and anything which requires typing more than 140 characters and the Bluetooth keyboard support and faster wireless are useful improvements. I suspect that third party cameras, graphics tablets, etc. will be available very quickly.
Much more important, though, was iWork and what it implies. There HAVE to be new versions of both the OS and iTunes to support the iPad.
The biggest drawback of the OS is that files are linked to a single application. That is IMPOSSIBLE with an office suite. I think that the iWork announcement strongly also implies both printer support and multitasking. Remember that the first iPhone didn’t even run apps, adding major functionality is almost a sure thing. The Omni Group announcing their apps will make the machine even more useful, and for me I think it can replace a laptop for travel (I can always VNC into my Macbook for sites which need Flash).
This OS is FAR easier to use than OS X, Windows, Linux. Give a 6 year old an iPad and a netbook and see which one he can use immediately.
THAT is why the iPod matters. This is the first machine which can do a lot of useful stuff, far more than my iPod Touch can, with an easy to use OS. It is as significant as the switch from command lines to Windows/Mac OS in terms of expanding the number of people that can deal with using a computer. This is what computer operating systems, not just phone operating systems, are going to look like ten years from now. How many of us who are tech support for our families are going to recommend iPads.
It’s also a great machine for travel – half the weight of my netbook, and more reliable (solid state), and of course the software being very inexpensive (or free if you own them for an iPhone) is a big plus.
Here’s a proposition. All of you who think the iPad will be a failure – sit back and wait for the inevitable. Quietly. No point wasting your time on the minutae.