Hi Jim,

Thanks very much for your comments.

I think you bottom line gets to the heart of the issue. Live and let Live is pretty much the only route to peace. This is something I've blogged about before: http://www.bartbusschots.ie/blog/?p=871. It's for that reason that states should not enshrine the religious views of one group over another in law, or worse, the constitution.

I don't know enough about US legal history to comment on the role judges have or have not played in civil rights struggles. I've been lead to believe that one of the functions of the courts is to protect minorities. I could of course be wrong. I do know that the courts played a big part in gay rights in Texas when they ruled that the government has no right to interfere in the bedroom. I guess the reality is all branches of government are needed to get anything really done.

As for all states having to recognise gay marriage if it's legal in one state, I thought the DOMA put an end to that? If not, CA was not the first state to legalise gay marriage anyway, so how does prop 8 change anything in this regard?

The religious points you raise are interesting, but I have a few to raise to counter them. Firstly, the bible has very little to say about homosexuality. Very little indeed. With the exception of Leviticus all other references are both exceedingly scarce (one or two I believe), and debatable. I believe the one(s) in the Paul refer to what was in effect pederasty, rather than a committed homosexual relationship, and I think we can all agree that pederasty is not a good thing! That only leaves Leviticus, and that's a book where Christians have done some SERIOUS picking and choosing. The exact word used to describe a man lying with a man as with a woman is that it, and hence homosexuality, is an abomination. Pretty strong stuff indeed. However, Leviticus also says that eating shellfish is an abomination! The reality is that you HAVE to pick and choose, because not picking and choosing is simply not possible in the modern world. Going around beating your wife & kids and stoning your neighbours is simply incompatible with modern life!

So, all churches pick and choose. Indeed, there are Christian churches which bless gay marriage. The scriptural case for persecuting gays is very week indeed, and can, very cogently, be argued not to exist.

Anyway, the bottom line remains the same. If some Christians want to consider homosexuality a sin that is their right. Muslims consider drinking alcohol a sin, Jews forbid the eating of bacon. All religions have their extra laws. However, that's no reason to enforce those beliefs on everyone. Just look at how well prohibition worked out!

There is no way to get around the fact that denying civil rights for some based on sexual orientation is discrimination. Gays are not going away. Gays are not going to stop fighting for their basic rights. The only way the constant battle can stop is if Christians can learn to live and let live in the same way that Muslims and Jews are doing in America. Do you see Muslim or Jewish religious groups organising ballots to get alcohol made illegal or pork banned?

Sorry for waffling on a bit, and thanks again for your well thought out and very politely argued comments.

Bart.