Hi Bart. I found your site via Allison/Nosilla and thought I'd comment on this topic. Thanks for the opportunity.

Fred Phelps can not be educated - he's a nincompoop (harsher words come to mind but I'm trying to be polite in polite company.)

Women's rights came about in the US by President Wilson urging Congress to pass a law after civil disobedience became widespread, not by a judge's decision. Rights for slaves came by a bloody civil war, a president's proclamation and states ratifying the amendment, again, not by a judges decision. Judges here can't come in agreement and that's why we have the system of appeals we do. The buck stops at the top, so to speak. If a judge tried to dictate civil rights for gays then 5 others would disagree and another 10 would agree and it would be chaos... it really does need to be legislated and, I believe, at the state level.

Another reason for laws is that in the US, if one state says X and Y are married then every other state has to accept that as a marriage, right down to taxes, health care, etc. It's an awkward situation that has many people emotionally involved.

The issue of religion does not cloud issues for those who are partakers of it. It is what they base their beliefs on and is no more or less "clouding" than the love one gay person has for another. They just have another set of things they use to determine the definitions of right and wrong or good and bad. If they are sincere then it is who they are and not something auxiliary to muddy the waters.

Not every religious person believes homosexuality is unnatural. Many believe it is natural and pleasurable like many other things God wants us not to do. Not that everything pleasurable is sin but most things that are sin are pleasurable.

Love thy neighbor is a command, but if we are going by commands then so is don't fornicate, lie, steal, have intimate relations with the same sex, etc. It is not compelling to cherry pick one command and ignore another when trying to make a solid argument for/against things like this.

Another reason for the opposition is not just morality but economics. The fear, warranted or not, of the health system being unduly burdened or a family being overruled in the decision of their loved one's health by a gay lover, etc. I live in Florida and there was discussion at the water cooler along the lines of "If gay marriage passes here then a gay lover living with someone has more rights than a heterosexual lover that's not married does because the state doesn't recognize civil unions." In this past election the voters ruled out all civil unions regardless of orientation so it has become moot... but those fears and the moral beliefs of people are what the gay community faces.

Bottom line: Bart, you bring up many good points in a well-written post that prompts considerate thought. Perhaps if people can't agree with each other's life choices then at least they will treat each other with respect and dignity.

I look forward to reading more. Peace.